Finance question...

Hello,

I've been learning LQ personal edition for a while now. I know LISP but not the LW environment and so far I like it very very much! As slick as emacs+slime is, LW knocks its socks off IMHO especially regarding debugging and just all-round UI-ness.

So... of all the people I see on this list, who has paid for it themselves and who is using it as part of an employed situation? I am curious because the one thing that puts me off is the constant renewal. When I buy other software, I buy it once, I own it, I can pretty much do what I want.

Thanks.

Sean.

Re: Finance question...

Hi Sean,

I bought my first version of Lispworks (from my own money) almost
20 years ago and I'm still a happy customer.  I personally pay for
the yearly maintenance renewals but you're not required to do that.
As far as I know you can just buy it, own it, and use it for the rest
of your life without paying anything for maintenance.

Arthur

---

On Tue, 20 Sep 2016 10:02:59 +0200, emacstheviking <objitsu@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I've been learning LQ personal edition for a while now. I know LISP but not
> the LW environment and so far I like it very very much! As slick as
> emacs+slime is, LW knocks its socks off IMHO especially regarding debugging
> and just all-round UI-ness.
>
> So... of all the people I see on this list, who has paid for it themselves
> and who is using it as part of an employed situation? I am curious because
> the one thing that puts me off is the constant renewal. When I buy other
> software, I buy it once, I own it, I can pretty much do what I want.
>
> Thanks.
> Sean.

_______________________________________________
Lisp Hug - the mailing list for LispWorks users
lisp-hug@lispworks.com
http://www.lispworks.com/support/lisp-hug.html

Re: Finance question...

Hi,

You don’t have to pay the yearly renewal. However, you then have to pay the full price for major upgrades. This is like with any other commercial software. With the yearly renewal, you get a discount on the upgrade to the next major version.

Pascal

On 20 Sep 2016, at 10:02, emacstheviking <objitsu@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello,

I've been learning LQ personal edition for a while now. I know LISP but not the LW environment and so far I like it very very much! As slick as emacs+slime is, LW knocks its socks off IMHO especially regarding debugging and just all-round UI-ness.

So... of all the people I see on this list, who has paid for it themselves and who is using it as part of an employed situation? I am curious because the one thing that puts me off is the constant renewal. When I buy other software, I buy it once, I own it, I can pretty much do what I want.

Thanks.

Sean.

--
Pascal Costanza
The views expressed in this email are my own, and not those of my employer.

Intel Corporation NV/SA
Kings Square, Veldkant 31
2550 Kontich
RPM (Bruxelles) 0415.497.718.
Citibank, Brussels, account 570/1031255/09

This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential material for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). Any review or distribution by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies.

Re: Finance question...

Hi Sean,

I use LW at work, but the I and the rest of the team uses it via
SLIME. I have fixed our build so that it can be loaded into the LW IDE
and we do like some of the features, but it is different enough from
Emacs and CL focused enough when we also want to be editing
JavaScript, Python and Matlab code, that so far we have stuck to
Emacs.

But I also live in Emacs and at home I typically use open source CL
implementations I won't mention here, so there's that, and the license
cost of LW is something for my employer to think about. My thoughts on
LW pricing are not relevant because they are not mine to pay.

That said, I have come to see why people do pay for this implementation.

Cheers

On 20 September 2016 at 17:32, emacstheviking <objitsu@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I've been learning LQ personal edition for a while now. I know LISP but not
> the LW environment and so far I like it very very much! As slick as
> emacs+slime is, LW knocks its socks off IMHO especially regarding debugging
> and just all-round UI-ness.
>
> So... of all the people I see on this list, who has paid for it themselves
> and who is using it as part of an employed situation? I am curious because
> the one thing that puts me off is the constant renewal. When I buy other
> software, I buy it once, I own it, I can pretty much do what I want.
>
> Thanks.
> Sean.
>

_______________________________________________
Lisp Hug - the mailing list for LispWorks users
lisp-hug@lispworks.com
http://www.lispworks.com/support/lisp-hug.html

Re: Finance question...

I essentially pay for it myself (I actually pay through a company I own half of).  I do have an intention to use it in anger at some point (and have done in the past) but am not doing so currently.

You can just buy a license and then you can use that version for ever.  If you want to keep it current then you can either buy each new version or you can pay a contract which gets you upgrades (I do this).  I think that's a common and fair model of charging.

I suspect other Lisps are now within epsilon of LW in terms of quality of implementation.  They are *not* within epsilon in terms of quality of environment, and since I spend a lot of time writing and debugging code I care about environment a lot: the LW environment is cheap for what it is.

> On 20 Sep 2016, at 09:02, emacstheviking <objitsu@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> I've been learning LQ personal edition for a while now. I know LISP but not the LW environment and so far I like it very very much! As slick as emacs+slime is, LW knocks its socks off IMHO especially regarding debugging and just all-round UI-ness.
> 
> So... of all the people I see on this list, who has paid for it themselves and who is using it as part of an employed situation? I am curious because the one thing that puts me off is the constant renewal. When I buy other software, I buy it once, I own it, I can pretty much do what I want.
> 
> Thanks.
> Sean.
> 

_______________________________________________
Lisp Hug - the mailing list for LispWorks users
lisp-hug@lispworks.com
http://www.lispworks.com/support/lisp-hug.html

Re: Finance question...


> Am 20.09.2016 um 12:03 schrieb Tim Bradshaw <tfb@cley.com>:
> 
...snip...
> I suspect other Lisps are now within epsilon of LW in terms of quality of implementation.  They are *not* within epsilon in terms of quality of environment, and since I spend a lot of time writing and debugging code I care about environment a lot: the LW environment is cheap for what it is.

There are use cases which are either not so easy supported or may need more documentation for LispWorks. Version 7 is already improving things a lot.

My impression is that the LispWorks runtime is quite a bit more stable than most of the other alternatives, especially given its capabilities.
That was again my impression when looking at the ARM port. For my CL-HTTP purposes LispWorks was/is working very well on ARM. 

Regards,

Rainer Joswig




> 
>> On 20 Sep 2016, at 09:02, emacstheviking <objitsu@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Hello,
>> 
>> I've been learning LQ personal edition for a while now. I know LISP but not the LW environment and so far I like it very very much! As slick as emacs+slime is, LW knocks its socks off IMHO especially regarding debugging and just all-round UI-ness.
>> 
>> So... of all the people I see on this list, who has paid for it themselves and who is using it as part of an employed situation? I am curious because the one thing that puts me off is the constant renewal. When I buy other software, I buy it once, I own it, I can pretty much do what I want.
>> 
>> Thanks.
>> Sean.
>> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Lisp Hug - the mailing list for LispWorks users
> lisp-hug@lispworks.com
> http://www.lispworks.com/support/lisp-hug.html


_______________________________________________
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lisp-hug@lispworks.com
http://www.lispworks.com/support/lisp-hug.html

Re: Finance question...

There are still areas where LispWorks is difficult to beat. Our sequencing tool called elPrep [1] works pretty well with LispWorks, and deals very well with large amounts of in-memory data, tested with a few hundreds of GB of data in RAM. We barely got SBCL to handle such amount of data, and it requires reconfiguration of SBCL, whereas LispWorks accommodates such data quite well.

We haven’t ported elPrep to other CL implementations, so other CLs may also do well, but so far, LispWorks has always worked out very well for me and projects I have been involved in.

Pascal

[1] https://github.com/exascience/elprep

> On 20 Sep 2016, at 12:03, Tim Bradshaw <tfb@cley.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> I essentially pay for it myself (I actually pay through a company I own half of).  I do have an intention to use it in anger at some point (and have done in the past) but am not doing so currently.
> 
> You can just buy a license and then you can use that version for ever.  If you want to keep it current then you can either buy each new version or you can pay a contract which gets you upgrades (I do this).  I think that's a common and fair model of charging.
> 
> I suspect other Lisps are now within epsilon of LW in terms of quality of implementation.  They are *not* within epsilon in terms of quality of environment, and since I spend a lot of time writing and debugging code I care about environment a lot: the LW environment is cheap for what it is.
> 
>> On 20 Sep 2016, at 09:02, emacstheviking <objitsu@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Hello,
>> 
>> I've been learning LQ personal edition for a while now. I know LISP but not the LW environment and so far I like it very very much! As slick as emacs+slime is, LW knocks its socks off IMHO especially regarding debugging and just all-round UI-ness.
>> 
>> So... of all the people I see on this list, who has paid for it themselves and who is using it as part of an employed situation? I am curious because the one thing that puts me off is the constant renewal. When I buy other software, I buy it once, I own it, I can pretty much do what I want.
>> 
>> Thanks.
>> Sean.
>> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Lisp Hug - the mailing list for LispWorks users
> lisp-hug@lispworks.com
> http://www.lispworks.com/support/lisp-hug.html
> 

--
Pascal Costanza
The views expressed in this email are my own, and not those of my employer.

Intel Corporation NV/SA
Kings Square, Veldkant 31
2550 Kontich
RPM (Bruxelles) 0415.497.718. 
Citibank, Brussels, account 570/1031255/09

This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential material for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). Any review or distribution by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies.

_______________________________________________
Lisp Hug - the mailing list for LispWorks users
lisp-hug@lispworks.com
http://www.lispworks.com/support/lisp-hug.html

Re: Finance question...

emacstheviking <objitsu@gmail.com> writes:

> So... of all the people I see on this list, who has paid for it themselves
> and who is using it as part of an employed situation? I am curious because
> the one thing that puts me off is the constant renewal. When I buy other
> software, I buy it once, I own it, I can pretty much do what I want.

Hi,

we have licenses for most platforms at work, so I don't pay for it from
my own pockets. I think the yearly maintenance fee is a good deal
considering the value you get for it, but as other here have pointed
out, you don't have to pay for it if you'd rather just keep the version
you bought and do "pretty much what you want" with it.
-- 
  (espen)

_______________________________________________
Lisp Hug - the mailing list for LispWorks users
lisp-hug@lispworks.com
http://www.lispworks.com/support/lisp-hug.html

Re: Finance question...

Hi,

You buy it once and use it forever. For every major upgrade you have to pay full price however (unless you buy Professional edition + maintenance package).

For me as a private user (of HobbyistDV) there are few advantages over other implementations:

1) Better IDE. I like it far better than Slime, and I do my other development in Emacs mostly, but not common lisp - having LW IDE really helps a lot.

2) Delivery and treeshaker. I really value binary delivery in one app of reasonable size.

3) CAPI. It allows me to quickly develop apps with GUI, like this one: https://github.com/fourier/mediaimport

4) Goodies - there is a lot of stuff in LW packages build in.

5) Stability. I've got a situation with extensive garbage generation when the 64bit SBCL died while 32bit LW lived without any problems.

So I'll stick with LW in the future and most likely move to Pro+maintenance subscription.

I only wish they could work more on CAPI (adding more widgets, more customization etc) and IDE, to make it more modern and on par with look&feel with existing IDEs for other languages.

BR

/Alexey

On Tue, Sep 20, 2016 at 10:02 AM, emacstheviking <objitsu@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello,

I've been learning LQ personal edition for a while now. I know LISP but not the LW environment and so far I like it very very much! As slick as emacs+slime is, LW knocks its socks off IMHO especially regarding debugging and just all-round UI-ness.

So... of all the people I see on this list, who has paid for it themselves and who is using it as part of an employed situation? I am curious because the one thing that puts me off is the constant renewal. When I buy other software, I buy it once, I own it, I can pretty much do what I want.

Thanks.
Sean.