Niche product for individual tinkerers?

This may be a bit controversial but is Lispworks destined to be a super-niche product for individual tinkerers?

It seems that outfitting a team of lispers with 64-bit licenses would be prohibitively expensive. Doubly so if developing for several platforms! Am I missing something?

I've been letting my enterprise Mac license lie fallow as I can't see myself developing a product and then having to buy a bunch more licenses as the team grows. 

P.S. I'm not even taking into account the free Lisp and non-Lisp alternatives like Go, Swift, etc.

Re: Niche product for individual tinkerers?

I suspect it's just the reverse - they probably have a few companies who are prepared to pay big bucks for a good LISP system and need to charge them a lot to stay in business. Something's working - their Companies House accounts show them six figures in the black - so presumably there are a lot of non-individuals using it, or at least enough to keep things running. Which I'm really glad of because I'd rather not be stuck with just open source versions supported "when we feel like it" or Franz having a monopoly! I'm a bit miffed about the full double license cost for multiple platforms but that's about all..

Mark

On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 12:52 PM, Joel Reymont <joelr1@gmail.com> wrote:

This may be a bit controversial but is Lispworks destined to be a super-niche product for individual tinkerers?

It seems that outfitting a team of lispers with 64-bit licenses would be prohibitively expensive. Doubly so if developing for several platforms! Am I missing something?

I've been letting my enterprise Mac license lie fallow as I can't see myself developing a product and then having to buy a bunch more licenses as the team grows.

P.S. I'm not even taking into account the free Lisp and non-Lisp alternatives like Go, Swift, etc.

Re: Niche product for individual tinkerers?


> On May 6, 2016, at 11:04 AM, Mark Green <mark@antelope.nildram.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> I suspect it's just the reverse - they probably have a few companies who are prepared to pay big bucks for a good LISP system and need to charge them a lot to stay in business. Something's working - their Companies House accounts show them six figures in the black - so presumably there are a lot of non-individuals using it, or at least enough to keep things running. Which I'm really glad of because I'd rather not be stuck with just open source versions supported "when we feel like it" or Franz having a monopoly! I'm a bit miffed about the full double license cost for multiple platforms but that's about all..

I’m glad to hear they’re in the black. I hope they stay that way for the foreseeable future. I’m a happy customer who would hate to see any other results.




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Re: Niche product for individual tinkerers?

Well, yea, that's why I looked up their accounts in the first place. I wanted to know they'll be sticking around. :)

Mark

On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 5:22 PM, mikel evins <mevins@me.com> wrote:

> On May 6, 2016, at 11:04 AM, Mark Green <mark@antelope.nildram.co.uk> wrote:
>
> I suspect it's just the reverse - they probably have a few companies who are prepared to pay big bucks for a good LISP system and need to charge them a lot to stay in business. Something's working - their Companies House accounts show them six figures in the black - so presumably there are a lot of non-individuals using it, or at least enough to keep things running. Which I'm really glad of because I'd rather not be stuck with just open source versions supported "when we feel like it" or Franz having a monopoly! I'm a bit miffed about the full double license cost for multiple platforms but that's about all..

I’m glad to hear they’re in the black. I hope they stay that way for the foreseeable future. I’m a happy customer who would hate to see any other results.

Re: Niche product for individual tinkerers?

Yakov,

How many enterprise licenses have you bought for your startup? I see you listed as the sole programmer for example. 

For my "startup" I bought a 32-bit license in addition to the enterprise one, both for Mac. Didn't get a discount when "upgrading".

Granted, this beats paying royalties to Franz but I'm much more likely to pick something other than Lisp when hiring a bunch of people.

On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 8:27 PM Yakov Zaytsev <ysz@nobreach.io> wrote:

Not only a few BigCos but even startups..

Seriously though, do you consider some $4K one-time per seat (+some hundred bucks recurring) “prohibitively expensive”?? Should you reconsider your business model then :-P

On 06 May 2016, at 19:04, Mark Green <mark@antelope.nildram.co.uk> wrote:

I suspect it's just the reverse - they probably have a few companies who are prepared to pay big bucks for a good LISP system and need to charge them a lot to stay in business.

Re: Niche product for individual tinkerers?

Franz don't charge royalties anymore. And I'm not sure commercialisation can really be blamed for puttin people off Lisp.. Visual Studio is even more expensive than LispWorks and it doesn't put people off C# / C++, after all.

Mark

On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 7:16 PM, Yakov Zaytsev <ysz@nobreach.io> wrote:

Joel,

listed where? “On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog"

you are missing the point anyways. Both of pricing and of Common Lisp. I’ve bought 2. If I were in your shoes, I would consider something other

On 06 May 2016, at 21:09, Joel Reymont <joelr1@gmail.com> wrote:

Yakov,

How many enterprise licenses have you bought for your startup? I see you listed as the sole programmer for example.

For my "startup" I bought a 32-bit license in addition to the enterprise one, both for Mac. Didn't get a discount when "upgrading".

Granted, this beats paying royalties to Franz but I'm much more likely to pick something other than Lisp when hiring a bunch of people.

On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 8:27 PM Yakov Zaytsev <ysz@nobreach.io> wrote:
Not only a few BigCos but even startups..

Seriously though, do you consider some $4K one-time per seat (+some hundred bucks recurring) “prohibitively expensive”?? Should you reconsider your business model then :-P

On 06 May 2016, at 19:04, Mark Green <mark@antelope.nildram.co.uk> wrote:

I suspect it's just the reverse - they probably have a few companies who are prepared to pay big bucks for a good LISP system and need to charge them a lot to stay in business.

Re: Niche product for individual tinkerers?

Just checked and Franz still charge royalties on Allegro CL, plus about the same as LW for the license.

On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 10:01 PM Mark Green <mark@antelope.nildram.co.uk> wrote:

Franz don't charge royalties anymore. And I'm not sure commercialisation can really be blamed for puttin people off Lisp. Visual Studio is even more expensive than LispWorks and it doesn't put people off C# / C++, after all.

Mark

On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 7:16 PM, Yakov Zaytsev <ysz@nobreach.io> wrote:
Joel,

listed where? “On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog"

you are missing the point anyways. Both of pricing and of Common Lisp. I’ve bought 2. If I were in your shoes, I would consider something other

On 06 May 2016, at 21:09, Joel Reymont <joelr1@gmail.com> wrote:

Yakov,

How many enterprise licenses have you bought for your startup? I see you listed as the sole programmer for example.

For my "startup" I bought a 32-bit license in addition to the enterprise one, both for Mac. Didn't get a discount when "upgrading".

Granted, this beats paying royalties to Franz but I'm much more likely to pick something other than Lisp when hiring a bunch of people.

On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 8:27 PM Yakov Zaytsev <ysz@nobreach.io> wrote:
Not only a few BigCos but even startups..

Seriously though, do you consider some $4K one-time per seat (+some hundred bucks recurring) “prohibitively expensive”?? Should you reconsider your business model then :-P

On 06 May 2016, at 19:04, Mark Green <mark@antelope.nildram.co.uk> wrote:

I suspect it's just the reverse - they probably have a few companies who are prepared to pay big bucks for a good LISP system and need to charge them a lot to stay in business.

RE: Niche product for individual tinkerers?

Hi,

That’s interesting, because Visual Studio Express was free the last time I checked.

-G

From: owner-lisp-hug@lispworks.com [mailto:owner-lisp-hug@lispworks.com] On Behalf Of Mark Green
Sent: Friday, May 6, 2016 2:01 PM
To: Yakov Zaytsev <ysz@nobreach.io>
Cc: Joel Reymont <joelr1@gmail.com>; Lispworks HUG <lisp-hug@lispworks.com>
Subject: Re: Niche product for individual tinkerers?

Franz don't charge royalties anymore. And I'm not sure commercialisation can really be blamed for puttin people off Lisp. Visual Studio is even more expensive than LispWorks and it doesn't put people off C# / C++, after all.

Mark

On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 7:16 PM, Yakov Zaytsev <ysz@nobreach.io> wrote:

Joel,

listed where? “On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog"

you are missing the point anyways. Both of pricing and of Common Lisp. I’ve bought 2. If I were in your shoes, I would consider something other

On 06 May 2016, at 21:09, Joel Reymont <joelr1@gmail.com> wrote:

Yakov,

How many enterprise licenses have you bought for your startup? I see you listed as the sole programmer for example.

For my "startup" I bought a 32-bit license in addition to the enterprise one, both for Mac. Didn't get a discount when "upgrading".

Granted, this beats paying royalties to Franz but I'm much more likely to pick something other than Lisp when hiring a bunch of people.

On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 8:27 PM Yakov Zaytsev <ysz@nobreach.io> wrote:

Not only a few BigCos but even startups..

Seriously though, do you consider some $4K one-time per seat (+some hundred bucks recurring) “prohibitively expensive”?? Should you reconsider your business model then :-P

On 06 May 2016, at 19:04, Mark Green <mark@antelope.nildram.co.uk> wrote:

I suspect it's just the reverse - they probably have a few companies who are prepared to pay big bucks for a good LISP system and need to charge them a lot to stay in business.

Re: Niche product for individual tinkerers?

Visual Studio Professional is 399$, Community edition is free. Enterrise
edition is more expensive however. But it comes with a bunch of full
project lifecycle tools..

It would be nice though to not to have a price difference between 32/64
bit editions or have a all-platforms-in-one package, otherwise the LW
price is a little too steep for individual users...


Mark Green <mark@antelope.nildram.co.uk> writes:

> Franz don't charge royalties anymore. And I'm not sure commercialisation can really be blamed for puttin
> people off Lisp. Visual Studio is even more expensive than LispWorks and it doesn't put people off C# /
> C++, after all.
>
> Mark
>
> On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 7:16 PM, Yakov Zaytsev <ysz@nobreach.io> wrote:
>
>
>  Joel,
>
>  listed where? “On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog"
>
>  you are missing the point anyways. Both of pricing and of Common Lisp. I’ve bought 2. If I were in
>  your shoes, I would consider something other
>
>  On 06 May 2016, at 21:09, Joel Reymont <joelr1@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  Yakov,
>
>  How many enterprise licenses have you bought for your startup? I see you listed as the sole
>  programmer for example. 
>
>  For my "startup" I bought a 32-bit license in addition to the enterprise one, both for Mac. Didn't
>  get a discount when "upgrading".
>
>  Granted, this beats paying royalties to Franz but I'm much more likely to pick something other
>  than Lisp when hiring a bunch of people. 
>
>  On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 8:27 PM Yakov Zaytsev <ysz@nobreach.io> wrote:
>
>
>  Not only a few BigCos but even startups.. 
>
>  Seriously though, do you consider some $4K one-time per seat (+some hundred bucks
>  recurring) “prohibitively expensive”?? Should you reconsider your business model then
>  :-P
>
>  On 06 May 2016, at 19:04, Mark Green <mark@antelope.nildram.co.uk> wrote:
>
>  I suspect it's just the reverse - they probably have a few companies who are
>  prepared to pay big bucks for a good LISP system and need to charge them a lot to
>  stay in business.
>
>
>

-- 
Br,
/Alexey

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Lisp Hug - the mailing list for LispWorks users
lisp-hug@lispworks.com
http://www.lispworks.com/support/lisp-hug.html

RE: Niche product for individual tinkerers?

> It would be nice though to not to have a price difference between 32/64 bit editions or have a all-platforms-in-one package, otherwise the LW price is a little too steep for individual users...

Agreed!

Z

_______________________________________________
Lisp Hug - the mailing list for LispWorks users
lisp-hug@lispworks.com
http://www.lispworks.com/support/lisp-hug.html

RE: Niche product for individual tinkerers?

Yes!

And, the Visual Studio Community edition is also free for certain uses too. Easy choice for me (as mentioned recently) as a result, although I would much rather program in Lisp for these small projects.

Gerry Weaver said:

Hi,

That’s interesting, because Visual Studio Express was free the last time I checked.

-G

Mark

On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 7:16 PM, Yakov Zaytsev <ysz@nobreach.io> wrote:

Joel,

listed where? “On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog"

you are missing the point anyways. Both of pricing and of Common Lisp. I’ve bought 2. If I were in your shoes, I would consider something other

On 06 May 2016, at 21:09, Joel Reymont <joelr1@gmail.com> wrote:

Yakov,

How many enterprise licenses have you bought for your startup? I see you listed as the sole programmer for example.

For my "startup" I bought a 32-bit license in addition to the enterprise one, both for Mac. Didn't get a discount when "upgrading".

Granted, this beats paying royalties to Franz but I'm much more likely to pick something other than Lisp when hiring a bunch of people.

On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 8:27 PM Yakov Zaytsev <ysz@nobreach.io> wrote:

Not only a few BigCos but even startups..

Seriously though, do you consider some $4K one-time per seat (+some hundred bucks recurring) “prohibitively expensive”?? Should you reconsider your business model then :-P

On 06 May 2016, at 19:04, Mark Green <mark@antelope.nildram.co.uk> wrote:

I suspect it's just the reverse - they probably have a few companies who are prepared to pay big bucks for a good LISP system and need to charge them a lot to stay in business.

Re: Niche product for individual tinkerers?

Lispworks Personal is also free. And it's Lispworks that's six figures in the black. I have no idea about Franz's accounts because I don't use them :)

But it's the only business model that's ever worked for minority vertical-market languages - either go open source and be eventually abandoned, or make sure the people who are prepared to pay the big bucks do pay it. The only language I know that doesn't go this way is Visual Prolog and that's because PDC has a big bespoke applications development business which subsidises the development tool.

Mark

On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 9:36 PM, Gerry Weaver <gerryw@compvia.com> wrote:

Hi,

That’s interesting, because Visual Studio Express was free the last time I checked.

-G

From: owner-lisp-hug@lispworks.com [mailto:owner-lisp-hug@lispworks.com] On Behalf Of Mark Green
Sent: Friday, May 6, 2016 2:01 PM
To: Yakov Zaytsev <ysz@nobreach.io>
Cc: Joel Reymont <joelr1@gmail.com>; Lispworks HUG <lisp-hug@lispworks.com>
Subject: Re: Niche product for individual tinkerers?

Franz don't charge royalties anymore. And I'm not sure commercialisation can really be blamed for puttin people off Lisp. Visual Studio is even more expensive than LispWorks and it doesn't put people off C# / C++, after all.

Mark

On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 7:16 PM, Yakov Zaytsev <ysz@nobreach.io> wrote:

Joel,

listed where? “On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog"

you are missing the point anyways. Both of pricing and of Common Lisp. I’ve bought 2. If I were in your shoes, I would consider something other

On 06 May 2016, at 21:09, Joel Reymont <joelr1@gmail.com> wrote:

Yakov,

How many enterprise licenses have you bought for your startup? I see you listed as the sole programmer for example.

For my "startup" I bought a 32-bit license in addition to the enterprise one, both for Mac. Didn't get a discount when "upgrading".

Granted, this beats paying royalties to Franz but I'm much more likely to pick something other than Lisp when hiring a bunch of people.

On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 8:27 PM Yakov Zaytsev <ysz@nobreach.io> wrote:

Not only a few BigCos but even startups..

Seriously though, do you consider some $4K one-time per seat (+some hundred bucks recurring) “prohibitively expensive”?? Should you reconsider your business model then :-P

On 06 May 2016, at 19:04, Mark Green <mark@antelope.nildram..co.uk> wrote:

I suspect it's just the reverse - they probably have a few companies who are prepared to pay big bucks for a good LISP system and need to charge them a lot to stay in business.

RE: Niche product for individual tinkerers?

I'm not speaking for my employer, but as an existence proof they have several 64bit enterprise licenses.

I appreciate the engineering behind the platform and miss some of the threading primitives and defadvice when using other implementations at home, but use them I do, because I refuse to pay more for software than my computer is worth.

On 7 May 2016 07:22, "Syed Zaeem Hosain" <Syed.Hosain@aeris.net> wrote:
>
>
> > It would be nice though to not to have a price difference between 32/64 bit editions or have a all-platforms-in-one package, otherwise the LW price is a little too steep for individual users...
>
> Agreed!
>
> Z
>
> _______________________________________________
> Lisp Hug - the mailing list for LispWorks users
> lisp-hug@lispworks.com
> http://www.lispworks.com/support/lisp-hug.html
>

Re: Niche product for individual tinkerers?

On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 4:13 PM, Tim Bradshaw <tfb@cley.com> wrote:

(Also, does anyone actually *look* at what contract rates are for IT people? LW licenses are not, actually, expensive.)

As an IT contract developer, yes, I do know. And, yes, it is expensive. My MS VS2015 Pro with MSDN cost a bit over $1,000 USD (from Provantage), which includes the MSDN library, targets 32-bit and 64-bit Windows along with using Xamarin for other targets. By comparison, the lowest entry into LW 64-bit (only) Windows costs $3,000. I'm not complaining about it as it is their choice to price as they wish and they need to choose the model that works for them. Similarly, it is my choice to pick a lower cost dev tool for my commercial work as a single person shop. If lisp were my only dev work, it might be worth it, but then again, I didn't pay the extra for a VS Enterprise license either and that is my primary work at the moment.

Tim

RE: Niche product for individual tinkerers?

Mark Green said:
> Lispworks Personal is also free.

Yes, but (a) you can’t deliver a stand-alone executable with it, even for small programs, and (b) it is still at the previous version 6 release, less of an issue per se. Not useful really.

OTOH, Visual Studio Community Edition is not limited in its capabilities, compared to the paid-for versions. Just restrictions in the purpose – which works for me, since I am not charging for my programs.

> But it's the only business model that's ever worked for minority vertical-market languages - either go open source and be eventually abandoned, or make sure the people who are prepared to pay the big bucks do pay it. The only language I know that doesn't go this way is Visual Prolog and that's because PDC has a big bespoke applications development business which subsidises the development tool.

It is a choice that Lispworks has made on pricing, of course. I am not complaining about this per se – it is their business decision after all – just noting that I cannot use it for my small projects _due_ to that pricing. However, I am surprised that 32bit and 64bit Lispworks are _separately_ priced – this should not be the case in this day and age, IMHO!

Anyway, it just means that I write my small projects in C and C++ rather than Lisp ... oh, well. :(

BTW, as a response to an earlier post from me, people have sent links to a few free Lisp implementations, which I will check out. So far, I have decided not to use one of them (no graphics support for Windows). “You get what you pay for”, I suppose! :)

Re: Niche product for individual tinkerers?

I understand it's frustrating, especially the "treating 64-bit as gold dust" thing (which is especially weird on Apple where the majority of apps are expected by Apple to be 64-bit).. but I'm not a business expert but every single vertical market business I have dealt with who has lowered their prices in the hope of going mainstream has ended up going bust :(

Mark

On Sat, May 7, 2016 at 6:37 PM, Syed Zaeem Hosain <Syed.Hosain@aeris.net> wrote:

Mark Green said:
> Lispworks Personal is also free.

Yes, but (a) you can’t deliver a stand-alone executable with it, even for small programs, and (b) it is still at the previous version 6 release, less of an issue per se. Not useful really.

OTOH, Visual Studio Community Edition is not limited in its capabilities, compared to the paid-for versions. Just restrictions in the purpose – which works for me, since I am not charging for my programs.

> But it's the only business model that's ever worked for minority vertical-market languages - either go open source and be eventually abandoned, or make sure the people who are prepared to pay the big bucks do pay it. The only language I know that doesn't go this way is Visual Prolog and that's because PDC has a big bespoke applications development business which subsidises the development tool.

It is a choice that Lispworks has made on pricing, of course. I am not complaining about this per se – it is their business decision after all – just noting that I cannot use it for my small projects _due_ to that pricing. However, I am surprised that 32bit and 64bit Lispworks are _separately_ priced – this should not be the case in this day and age, IMHO!

Anyway, it just means that I write my small projects in C and C++ rather than Lisp ... oh, well. :(

BTW, as a response to an earlier post from me, people have sent links to a few free Lisp implementations, which I will check out. So far, I have decided not to use one of them (no graphics support for Windows). “You get what you pay for”, I suppose! :)

Z

Re: Niche product for individual tinkerers?

If JetBrains ever decides to create an IDE for Lisp, it will put all others in trouble, specially if it can work on top of any Lisp...

On Sat, May 7, 2016 at 12:35 PM Mark Green <mark@antelope.nildram.co.uk> wrote:

I understand it's frustrating, especially the "treating 64-bit as gold dust" thing (which is especially weird on Apple where the majority of apps are expected by Apple to be 64-bit).. but I'm not a business expert but every single vertical market business I have dealt with who has lowered their prices in the hope of going mainstream has ended up going bust :(

Mark

On Sat, May 7, 2016 at 6:37 PM, Syed Zaeem Hosain <Syed.Hosain@aeris.net> wrote:

Mark Green said:
> Lispworks Personal is also free.

Yes, but (a) you can’t deliver a stand-alone executable with it, even for small programs, and (b) it is still at the previous version 6 release, less of an issue per se. Not useful really.

OTOH, Visual Studio Community Edition is not limited in its capabilities, compared to the paid-for versions. Just restrictions in the purpose – which works for me, since I am not charging for my programs.

> But it's the only business model that's ever worked for minority vertical-market languages - either go open source and be eventually abandoned, or make sure the people who are prepared to pay the big bucks do pay it. The only language I know that doesn't go this way is Visual Prolog and that's because PDC has a big bespoke applications development business which subsidises the development tool.

It is a choice that Lispworks has made on pricing, of course. I am not complaining about this per se – it is their business decision after all – just noting that I cannot use it for my small projects _due_ to that pricing. However, I am surprised that 32bit and 64bit Lispworks are _separately_ priced – this should not be the case in this day and age, IMHO!

Anyway, it just means that I write my small projects in C and C++ rather than Lisp ... oh, well. :(

BTW, as a response to an earlier post from me, people have sent links to a few free Lisp implementations, which I will check out. So far, I have decided not to use one of them (no graphics support for Windows). “You get what you pay for”, I suppose! :)

Z

Re: Niche product for individual tinkerers?


> On May 7, 2016, at 10:24 PM, Francisco Jose Peredo Noguez <luxspes@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> If JetBrains ever decides to create an IDE for Lisp, it will put all others in trouble, specially if it can work on top of any Lisp...

It won’t. :-)


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Re: Niche product for individual tinkerers?

I have used LispWorks professionally at a few companies. As a lead in these companies, it usually goes down as follows:

Me: "Let's use Lisp for [reason]."

Them: [all usual arguments against Lisp]

Me: [convincing that Lisp is a good tool to solve this particular problem]

At this point I must say that when you're not in an executive position, Lisp is very hard to sell internally in companies. Not unexpected, but you can argue for it successfully at times. But it does get more difficult when price comes into the equation.

Them: [hesitantly convinced to use Lisp]

Me: "Let's use LispWorks for [obvious enterprise reasons: docs, GUI, delivery]."

Them: "Okay, what's the cost?"

Me: "About $10,000 per user for the platforms we are interested in running on."

Usually I can't get much further than this. They're already hesitant on Lisp, and now they're hearing that any new dev to the team will cost $10,000. None of these companies are against paying for tools, but it's definitely the case that they don't see a Lisp compiler/etc. on the same footing as other tools being purchased. What's worth more, a dev's yearly salary or some (from their POV) risky tools?

I'm sure it's a tough call for LispWorks, and frankly I don't know the right business approach to this problem. Of all the companies that I've been at that have used Lisp, none of them ever were convinced to invest completely. I can definitely say that if this OS/platform/bitness divide wasn't there, Lisp would be an easier sell. This is Mathematica's approach. Purchase a license and download/run on whatever OS. But I'm sure their customer base is orders of magnitude larger.

Cheers,

Robert Smith

On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 4:52 AM, Joel Reymont <joelr1@gmail.com> wrote:

This may be a bit controversial but is Lispworks destined to be a super-niche product for individual tinkerers?

It seems that outfitting a team of lispers with 64-bit licenses would be prohibitively expensive. Doubly so if developing for several platforms! Am I missing something?

I've been letting my enterprise Mac license lie fallow as I can't see myself developing a product and then having to buy a bunch more licenses as the team grows.

P.S. I'm not even taking into account the free Lisp and non-Lisp alternatives like Go, Swift, etc.