Some LispWorks questions

I come to LispWorks from a SLIME background. I have always wanted to
use the professional version and it's just now that the organization I
work with has been generous enough to let us use one.

I'd like to know what is it with LispWorks that makes its users stick
with it.  What do you thinkmakes LispWorks superior over other CL
development environments?  What makes you say that the licensing fee
you paid for is worth it?  I'd like to know what are LispWorks users'
view(s) on the tools that are being used now to develop CL programs.

:-)

-- 
Rommel M. Martinez <ebzzry@gmail.com>

Re: Some LispWorks questions

Hello,

> I'd like to know what is it with LispWorks that makes its users stick
> with it. 

  1) lisp-hug :-) always ready to help;
  2) excellent code generator and memory manager (the best one overall)
  3) professional, responsible and responsive team
     - giving the right advice when you need it
     - admitting that they have a bug and fixing it when there is one
  4) convenient profiler and legible error messages.


David Tolpin

Re: Some LispWorks questions

"Rommel Martinez" <ebzzry@gmail.com> writes:

> I'd like to know what is it with LispWorks that makes its users stick
> with it.

Good implementation, reasonable price, but mostly, the great support.

                                --Alain Picard
                                  CTO, Memetrics

Re: Some LispWorks questions

On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 2:38 PM, Alain Picard
<Alain.Picard@memetrics.com> wrote:
> "Rommel Martinez" <ebzzry@gmail.com> writes:
>
>  > I'd like to know what is it with LispWorks that makes its users stick
>  > with it.
>
>  Good implementation, reasonable price, but mostly, the great support.
>
>                                 --Alain Picard
>                                   CTO, Memetrics
>

Ok. I'll note all those down. :-)

-- 
Rommel M. Martinez <ebzzry@gmail.com>

Re: Some LispWorks questions

On 24 Apr 2008, at 08:15, Rommel Martinez wrote:

> I'd like to know what is it with LispWorks that makes its users stick
> with it.  What do you thinkmakes LispWorks superior over other CL
> development environments?  What makes you say that the licensing fee
> you paid for is worth it?  I'd like to know what are LispWorks users'
> view(s) on the tools that are being used now to develop CL programs.

Apart from the fact that LispWorks is a high-quality, professionally  
supported CL implementation, the key differentiator for me is  
certainly the IDE (on Mac OS X). Once you get used to all the tools  
and how they work together, it becomes very hard to go back to bare  
Emacs + SLIME. I am much more productive with the LispWorks IDE and if  
you program in CL a couple of hours a day, it pays back for itself in  
no time.

Sven

--
Sven Van Caekenberghe - http://homepage.mac.com/svc
Beta Nine - software engineering - http://www.beta9.be

"Lisp isn't a language, it's a building material." - Alan Kay

Re: Some LispWorks questions

On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:49:24 +0200, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@beta9.be> wrote:

> Apart from the fact that LispWorks is a high-quality, professionally
> supported CL implementation, the key differentiator for me is
> certainly the IDE (on Mac OS X). Once you get used to all the tools
> and how they work together, it becomes very hard to go back to bare
> Emacs + SLIME. I am much more productive with the LispWorks IDE and
> if you program in CL a couple of hours a day, it pays back for
> itself in no time.

I second that.  (I'm using the IDE on Windows.)  But note that the
"once you get used to" part above is very important.  Adapting to a
new IDE is not easy, especially if you've used something else before.
The old way of working will inevitably seem superior to you since
you're accustomed to it and know your way around.  I'd say it takes
several weeks, probably even months, of doing actual work with an IDE
(including reading its docs) until you can really evaluate it.  If you
form an opinion about it in a couple of hours or days, your judgement
won't even be worth the proverbial two cents.

Re: Some LispWorks questions

On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 5:05 PM, Edi Weitz <edi@agharta.de> wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:49:24 +0200, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@beta9.be> wrote:
>
>  > Apart from the fact that LispWorks is a high-quality, professionally
>  > supported CL implementation, the key differentiator for me is
>  > certainly the IDE (on Mac OS X). Once you get used to all the tools
>  > and how they work together, it becomes very hard to go back to bare
>  > Emacs + SLIME. I am much more productive with the LispWorks IDE and
>  > if you program in CL a couple of hours a day, it pays back for
>  > itself in no time.
>
>  I second that.  (I'm using the IDE on Windows.)  But note that the
>  "once you get used to" part above is very important.  Adapting to a
>  new IDE is not easy, especially if you've used something else before.
>  The old way of working will inevitably seem superior to you since
>  you're accustomed to it and know your way around.  I'd say it takes
>  several weeks, probably even months, of doing actual work with an IDE
>  (including reading its docs) until you can really evaluate it.  If you
>  form an opinion about it in a couple of hours or days, your judgement
>  won't even be worth the proverbial two cents.
>

I agree with you on that. I've been using Emacs for development for
a long time and switching to a new environment would not be very
easy if I'd do that.

-- 
Rommel M. Martinez <ebzzry@gmail.com>

Re: Some LispWorks questions

Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@beta9.be> writes:

> Once you get used to all the tools and how they work together, it
> becomes very hard to go back to bare Emacs + SLIME. I am much more
> productive with the LispWorks IDE and if you program in CL a couple
> of hours a day, it pays back for itself in no time.

The good thing is that you don't really have to pick one or the other.
I use Emacs/slime as my primary environment, but I really like some of
the tools in the IDE.  After starting slime, I say
(env:start-environment) in the slime repl, and voila, I'm having my
cake and eating it too.

-- 
Mvh/Regards
Peder O. Klingenberg
Netfonds Bank ASA

Re: Some LispWorks questions

On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 11:19:45 +0200, pok@netfonds.no (Peder O. Klingenberg) wrote:

> I use Emacs/slime as my primary environment, but I really like some
> of the tools in the IDE.  After starting slime, I say
> (env:start-environment) in the slime repl, and voila, I'm having my
> cake and eating it too.

There are some potential pitfalls if you work like that.  See for
example here (old, but still unsolved if I'm not mistaken):

  http://common-lisp.net/pipermail/slime-devel/2004-December/002876.html

[Note: Martin analyzed this and it is apparently an Emacs problem, not
a LispWorks problem.]

Re: Some LispWorks questions

On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 5:15 PM, Edi Weitz <edi@agharta.de> wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 17:10:26 +0800, "Rommel Martinez" <ebzzry@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  > I agree with you on that. I've been using Emacs for development for
>  > a long time and switching to a new environment would not be very
>  > easy if I'd do that.
>
>  I actually meant this as an encouragement to try it and to not give up
>  too early.  I also used SLIME before and it took me a long time until
>  I was really comfortable with the LW IDE.  But I now agree with Sven
>  that it makes me a lot more productive.  Sometimes I still have jobs
>  where I have to uses other Lisps (and thus SLIME) and today this seems
>  like a PITA to me.
>

Really?? Wow. (regarding the fact that you used to use SLIME)

-- 
Rommel M. Martinez <ebzzry@gmail.com>

Re: Some LispWorks questions

On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 17:41:40 +0800, "Rommel Martinez" <ebzzry@gmail.com> wrote:

> Really?? Wow. (regarding the fact that you used to use SLIME)

Look into SLIME's ChangeLog... :)

Re: Some LispWorks questions

On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 5:46 PM, Edi Weitz <edi@agharta.de> wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 17:41:40 +0800, "Rommel Martinez" <ebzzry@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  > Really?? Wow. (regarding the fact that you used to use SLIME)
>
>  Look into SLIME's ChangeLog... :)
>

Holy ... :-O

-- 
Rommel M. Martinez <ebzzry@gmail.com>

Re: Some LispWorks questions

On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 5:49 PM, Rommel Martinez <ebzzry@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 5:46 PM, Edi Weitz <edi@agharta.de> wrote:
>  > On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 17:41:40 +0800, "Rommel Martinez" <ebzzry@gmail.com> wrote:
>  >
>  >  > Really?? Wow. (regarding the fact that you used to use SLIME)
>  >
>  >  Look into SLIME's ChangeLog... :)
>  >
>
>  Holy ... :-O
>
>
>
>  --
>  Rommel M. Martinez <ebzzry@gmail.com>
>

Hmm. That made me consider LW even more.

This is going to be tough.

-- 
Rommel M. Martinez <ebzzry@gmail.com>

Re: Some LispWorks questions

Edi Weitz <edi@agharta.de> writes:

> There are some potential pitfalls if you work like that.  See for
> example here (old, but still unsolved if I'm not mistaken):
>
>   http://common-lisp.net/pipermail/slime-devel/2004-December/002876.html

Strange.  It's never bitten me, I think.  Admittedly, I don't do FFI
stuff that often, but I'm not a complete stranger to it either.
Thanks for the heads up.

> [Note: Martin analyzed this and it is apparently an Emacs problem, not
> a LispWorks problem.]

Is that analysis published anywhere?  If it's an Emacs problem, it can
presumably be fixed, what with this whole free software thing.
-- 
Mvh/Regards
Peder O. Klingenberg
Netfonds Bank ASA

Re: Some LispWorks questions

On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 12:33:33 +0200, pok@netfonds.no (Peder O. Klingenberg) wrote:

> Is that analysis published anywhere?  If it's an Emacs problem, it
> can presumably be fixed, what with this whole free software thing.

Found it:

  http://article.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.slime.devel/3350

Re: Some LispWorks questions

Edi Weitz <edi@agharta.de> writes:

>   http://article.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.slime.devel/3350

Ah.  Same thread, even.  Shame on me for not finding it myself.
Sorry.

It seems to be a windows-specific problem, Alain Picard's message
notwithstanding.  That would explain why I haven't hit it - I'm on
Linux.
-- 
Mvh/Regards
Peder O. Klingenberg
Netfonds Bank ASA

Re: Some LispWorks questions

KnowledgeWorks, which shipped with Enterprise Edition, the only Rule- 
based system which support both forward and backward chain reason.

And it's a complete Prolog development environment, much better then  
Franz's Allegro Prolog.

>
> I come to LispWorks from a SLIME background. I have always wanted to
> use the professional version and it's just now that the organization I
> work with has been generous enough to let us use one.
>
> I'd like to know what is it with LispWorks that makes its users stick
> with it.  What do you thinkmakes LispWorks superior over other CL
> development environments?  What makes you say that the licensing fee
> you paid for is worth it?  I'd like to know what are LispWorks users'
> view(s) on the tools that are being used now to develop CL programs.
>
> :-)
>
> -- 
> Rommel M. Martinez <ebzzry@gmail.com>
>

Re: Some LispWorks questions

On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 02:15:49PM +0800, Rommel Martinez wrote:
> I come to LispWorks from a SLIME background.

I come from a Vim / VILisp background, Lisp-wise.

> I'd like to know what is it with LispWorks that makes its users
> stick with it.  What do you think makes LispWorks superior over
> other CL development environments?  What makes you say that the
> licensing fee you paid for is worth it?

The more I used Lisp, the more everything else seemed to suck.  I
wanted an environment I could spend all my time in that was Common
Lisp all the way down, or at least as close as I could reasonably get.
"Reasonable" varies for everyone, of course; for me, it meant getting
a good Lisp IDE, with a good editor and FFI (as opposed to, say,
running SBCL on top of Movitz on the bare metal).

I chose Lispworks over Franz because they don't charge per-head
licensing fees, their editor does syntax highlighting, which I like a
lot (Franz's doesn't, at least in the free version), and because they
provide the source for their editor, which makes it easier to hack.
(For some of that hacking see <http://theclapp.org//blog/tags/vim_mode/>.)

As an aside, given all the energy people put into discussions of
Emacs's flaws (bytecode, elisp, single-threaded), I'm frankly
surprised (though only a little :) that more people don't buy
Lispworks just for the editor.  It's compiled to machine language, in
Common Lisp, and multi-threaded.  I guess it's easier to complain than
to pony up $1500, but maybe I'm unusual in my stance that since I
spend most of my time in my editor I'm willing to spend money to make
it a good experience.  (Or maybe I've just drunk the Lisp Kool-Aid and
am insane.  Take your pick.  :)

Anecdote: When I called Lispworks to place my order, Dave Fox took my
order personally, and we had a nice chat.  When I renewed, I happened
to speak with Dave again (even though it was 7 or 8pm in the UK), and
we had a nice chat about iPhone development, and whether or not
Lispworks would be doing anything for the iPhone.  There's no real
point to this story other than to say that Lispworks support is very
good.  :)

-- Larry Clapp

Re: Some LispWorks questions


"Rommel Martinez" <ebzzry@gmail.com> writes:
> I'd like to know what is it with LispWorks that makes its users stick
> with it.  What do you thinkmakes LispWorks superior over other CL
> development environments?  

I don't have anything extra to add over what others have said, but it
is worth reiterating that

- LispWorks is a high-quality product
- The support is fantastic
- The license terms are very reasonable
- The lisp-hug community is very helpful and supportive

Cheers,
Chris Dean