Re: LW 5.0 on Windows, Microsoft.VC80.CRT and delivered applications

Hi
RTFM :-) Particular the release notes for LWW5. You need to deliver
msvcrt8.dll (sorry haven't the docs here at work) with your app. LWW5
relies on it. If i remember correct you find the DLL in your LWW folder
where the LWW binary is. Then it should work.
Hope that helps

AHz



Simon Katz wrote:

>I'm in the process of getting my code working with LWW 5.0.
>
>When I try to start up a delivered application on a machine
>that doesn't have LW 5.0 installed, I get the following
>error message:
>
>    This application has failed to start because the
>    application configuration is incorrect.
>
>I tracked this down to the Microsoft.VC80.CRT component
>not being present.
>
>I've found a solution that appears to work, but I don't know
>whether I'm really doing The Right Thing.
>
>Following instructions at
>http://forums.microsoft.com/MSDN/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=164465&SiteID=1
>I have created a folder named Microsoft.VC80.CRT in the same
>folder as my delivered .exe, with the following contents:
>
>    msvcm80.dll
>    msvcp80.dll
>    msvcr80.dll
>       (the above copied from
>C:\WINDOWS\WinSxS\x86_Microsoft.VC80.CRT_1fc8b3b9a1e18e3b_8.0.50727.42
>_x-ww_0de06acd)
>
>    Microsoft.VC80.CRT.manifest
>
>The file Microsoft.VC80.CRT.manifest has the following
>contents:
>
>--------8<--------
><?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8" standalone="yes"?>
><!-- Copyright C 1981-2001 Microsoft Corporation -->
><assembly xmlns="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:asm.v1"
>manifestVersion="1.0">
>    <noInheritable/>
>    <assemblyIdentity 
>        type="win32" 
>        name="Microsoft.VC80.CRT" 
>        version="8.0.50608.0" 
>        processorArchitecture="x86" 
>        publicKeyToken="1fc8b3b9a1e18e3b"
>    />
>    <file name="msvcr80.dll"/>
>    <file name="msvcp80.dll"/>
>    <file name="msvcm80.dll"/>
></assembly>
>--------8<--------
>
>Everything seems to be working fine.
>
>So, my question is: Am I doing The Right Thing or is there
>a better way? I'm aware of the possibility of using vcredist_x86
>and ensuring that Windows Installer 3.x engine is available on the
>user's machine (as mentioned at the above link), but for now at
>least I think I'd like to keep things as simple as possible.
>
>Simon
>
>
>  
>

Re: LW 5.0 on Windows, Microsoft.VC80.CRT and delivered applications

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Re: LW 5.0 on Windows, Microsoft.VC80.CRT and delivered applications

On Fri, 4 Aug 2006 16:58:05 +0100, Martin Simmons <martin@lispworks.com> wrote:

> That approach is fine for XP (though be aware that your private copy
> of the DLL will not be updated by Windows Update).  Personally I
> prefer the vcredist_x86 approach though, because it works on all
> versions of Windows.

I just saw the same thing for the first time - a LispWorks DLL
delivered to a customer only worked after he installed the C++ runtime
library - I didn't notice this during the beta phase because I
obviously only tested on my own machines.

I think this is pretty sad, because it makes deployment of LispWorks
executables on Windows a lot harder.  In the "good old days" (two
weeks ago) you just gave them an EXE, now you have to use an
installer, and if you want to do it 100% correctly you probably even
have to use Microsoft's installer.

And people will probably start to ask questions like "If this is a
pure Common Lisp program as you said, why on earth do you need this
C++ library?"

So, could you shed some light on why whis was necessary?  ISTR that
the other two Lisps that can create executables on Windows (Corman
Lisp and AllegroCL) also need these libraries, but LispWorks so far
didn't.  Is there some specific new feature that needs this support?
Will every EXE/DLL created with LW 5.0 need the C++ runtime libraries?

Thanks,
Edi.

Re: LW 5.0 on Windows, Microsoft.VC80.CRT and delivered applications

Edi Weitz <edi@agharta.de> writes:

> I think this is pretty sad, because it makes deployment of LispWorks
> executables on Windows a lot harder.  

Yeah, I was able to get a LW5-based /mac/ version of my sw out the day
after I recieved LW5, but the Windows version had to be delayed :-(
(however, I was only in a hurry wrt. the mac version, had to get
a universal version out fast).

> And people will probably start to ask questions like "If this is a
> pure Common Lisp program as you said, why on earth do you need this
> C++ library?"

I'm a bit puzzled that it isn't part of the standard windows install.
It's almost (well, not quite, but...) like linux without glibc ;-)

This wasn't a problem with the beta. But I guess the machines I tried
delivered apps on already had the vc++ library installed?
-- 
  (espen)

Re: LW 5.0 on Windows, Microsoft.VC80.CRT and delivered applications

On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 10:41:11 +0200, Edi Weitz <edi@agharta.de> wrote:

> Will every EXE/DLL created with LW 5.0 need the C++ runtime
> libraries?

To answer one of my questions myself: I compiled the hello.lisp
program from LispWorks' example folder and even that one doesn't start
up without the runtime library.  I suppose I usually don't write much
simpler apps than that one.

Re: LW 5.0 on Windows, Microsoft.VC80.CRT and delivered applications

Btw. I use the free Inno Setup (innosetup.org) for distribution of
Windows apps. I see there's an example script for for vc++ 6 in
the Inno setup knowledge base. I think I'll start from that and
see if I can do something similar with the newer version.

If and when I get something working, I can post the results here
if there's any interest in using Inno Setup.
-- 
  (espen)

Re: LW 5.0 on Windows, Microsoft.VC80.CRT and delivered applications

On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 11:29:12 +0200, Espen Vestre <ev@netfonds.no> wrote:

> Btw. I use the free Inno Setup (innosetup.org) for distribution of
> Windows apps. I see there's an example script for for vc++ 6 in the
> Inno setup knowledge base. I think I'll start from that and see if I
> can do something similar with the newer version.
>
> If and when I get something working, I can post the results here if
> there's any interest in using Inno Setup.

I'm interested.  I've also used Inno Setup in the past, and I stumbled
across the page you mentioned last night, but I was too tired to try
it out.

But I wonder if what they do doesn't interfer with what the MS
installer does.  Will it still be able to update the runtime library
afterwards as Martin mentioned?

Thanks in advance,
Edi.

Re: LW 5.0 on Windows, Microsoft.VC80.CRT and delivered applications

Edi Weitz <edi@agharta.de> writes:

> But I wonder if what they do doesn't interfer with what the MS
> installer does.  

Yes, that's what worries me too, after a quick glance at it.
-- 
  (espen)

Re: LW 5.0 on Windows, Microsoft.VC80.CRT and delivered applications

On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 11:51:52 +0200, Espen Vestre <ev@netfonds.no> wrote:

> Edi Weitz <edi@agharta.de> writes:
>
>> But I wonder if what they do doesn't interfer with what the MS
>> installer does.
>
> Yes, that's what worries me too, after a quick glance at it.

Maybe an idea would be to package the file vcredist_x86.exe (the
so-called Visual C++ Redistributable) with your app and have Inno
Setup start it if it can't find msvcr80.dll.

That might still mean that some users will have to install Windows
Installer, but Windows users are probably used to that kind of pain...

(Well, you could also add the Windows Installer Redistributable to
your package and check for that one as well, but maybe that's asking a
bit too much.)

Re: LW 5.0 on Windows, Microsoft.VC80.CRT and delivered applications

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Re: LW 5.0 on Windows, Microsoft.VC80.CRT and delivered applications

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Re: LW 5.0 on Windows, Microsoft.VC80.CRT and delivered applications

On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 11:10:22 +0100, Martin Simmons <martin@lispworks.com> wrote:

> If you use the vcredist_x86.exe then you shouldn't need an
> installer.  Remember to install Windows first :-)

Hehe... :)

Yeah, but if you want to make it easy for your customers, you don't
want to ask them to check if they need it and download that thing from
Microsoft.  So, you'll have to somehow package it with what you
deliver to them.  And according to the MS webpage, vcredist_x86.exe
itself requires the Windows installer.  /They/ don't necessarily want
to make it easy for their customers... :)

> The thing that has changed in LispWorks 5.0 is that we switched from
> VC++ 6 to VC++ 2005.  This was necessary for three reasons:
>
> 1) VC++ 6 is no longer supported by Microsoft.  It is no longer part
> of MSDN.
>
> 2) We found a fatal bug in the C runtime library (msvcrt.dll) used
> by VC++ 6 programs on Vista beta.  I don't know if this has been
> fixed in the rc builds.
>
> 3) We needed support for 64-bit compilation and didn't want to
> support two different versions of VC++.
>
> Unfortunately, we are in another transition stage, where older
> operating systems don't have the libraries needed to run newer
> applications.  This has happened before with the VC++ 6 msvcrt.dll
> and also with the Common Controls DLL.

OK, thanks for the info.  Looks like that was inevitable.

Cheers,
Edi.

Re: LW 5.0 on Windows, Microsoft.VC80.CRT and delivered applications

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Re: LW 5.0 on Windows, Microsoft.VC80.CRT and delivered applications

Edi Weitz <edi@agharta.de> writes:

> Maybe an idea would be to package the file vcredist_x86.exe (the
> so-called Visual C++ Redistributable) with your app and have Inno
> Setup start it if it can't find msvcr80.dll.

Yes, that was my original plan before I found the stuff on the
inno setup web server.

> That might still mean that some users will have to install Windows
> Installer, but Windows users are probably used to that kind of pain...

I guess so. 
-- 
  (espen)

Re: LW 5.0 on Windows, Microsoft.VC80.CRT and delivered applications

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Re: LW 5.0 on Windows, Microsoft.VC80.CRT and delivered applications

As an addition to what Nick and Espen already wrote I played around a
bit with an almost "naked" Win2k install (on VMWare) that I use for
cases like this one.  Here's what I found out:

1. It seems like a new enough version of Windows Installer will be
   already there if you regularly update your OS (hotfixes and service
   packs).

2. If you then start vcredist_x86.exe, it works fine, but you'll have
   to answer license-related questions from Microsoft, so you
   shouldn't run it unconditionally to avoid bothering users which
   already have the runtime installed.

3. If you remove Windows Installer and try to run vcredist_x86.exe, it
   will fail with a strange error message that I suppose Joe User
   won't understand.  It definitely doesn't tell you that you need
   Windows Installer 3.0 to continue... :(

And commenting on the requirements Nick quoted: What does it mean that
vcredist_x86.exe is supposed to run on Win98 and WinME if it needs
Windows Installer 3.0 which only runs on Win2k and higher?  Is this a
Microsoft joke that I don't get?

Re: LW 5.0 on Windows, Microsoft.VC80.CRT and delivered applications

Edi Weitz <edi@agharta.de> writes:

> And commenting on the requirements Nick quoted: What does it mean that
> vcredist_x86.exe is supposed to run on Win98 and WinME if it needs
> Windows Installer 3.0 which only runs on Win2k and higher?  Is this a
> Microsoft joke that I don't get?

Yes, that really puzzled me too.

(On the other hand, I'm wondering if I should seize this opportunity
 to finally tell our users that we don't support ME or 98 anymore
 (especially ME is a notoriuos support case generator))
-- 
  (espen)

Re: LW 5.0 on Windows, Microsoft.VC80.CRT and delivered applications

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Re: LW 5.0 on Windows, Microsoft.VC80.CRT and delivered applications

On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 13:05:45 +0100, Martin Simmons <martin@lispworks.com> wrote:

> We noticed this with the LispWorks installer too.  My guess is that
> it needs the Windows Installer 3.0 for NT-based OSes to deal with
> installation into the (protected) Windows directories.  Win98 and
> WinME don't have much protection there, so it isn't needed.

Yeah, BTW, how do you deal with the runtime library problem with
/your/ installer?  Is the installer based on Windows Installer?  I
think if what you do works for LispWorks 5.0 (which seems to run on
WinME and Win98), the same technique would be good for us poor hackers
who want to deploy applications as well.

Re: LW 5.0 on Windows, Microsoft.VC80.CRT and delivered applications

On Tue, 22 Aug 2006 11:02:13 +0200, Espen Vestre <ev@netfonds.no> wrote:

> LW 5.0 seems to make PrimeTrader (both the mac and the windows
> version) significantly more stable

Interesting.  Could you provide some more details?  I've seen
noticable speed improvements with LW 5.0 but nothing related to
stability so far.  Which problems (except for font-related ones) did
you encounter with 4.4.x?

Thanks,
Edi.

Re: LW 5.0 on Windows, Microsoft.VC80.CRT and delivered applications

Edi Weitz <edi@agharta.de> writes:

> Interesting.  Could you provide some more details?  I've seen
> noticable speed improvements with LW 5.0 but nothing related to
> stability so far.  Which problems (except for font-related ones) did
> you encounter with 4.4.x?

The problems were very difficult to track down, but they may all have
been related to fonts or possibly other gui stuff. 
-- 
  (espen)

Re: LW 5.0 on Windows, Microsoft.VC80.CRT and delivered applications

Espen Vestre <ev@netfonds.no> writes:

> If and when I get something working, I can post the results here
> if there's any interest in using Inno Setup.

I've now started distributing the new lw5.0-based version.

So far, I've chosen to simply always run Microsoft's redistributable
package installer, so there's really not much interesting in my script.

I've not delivered the new version to many customers yet, but so far
customer comments are very positive - LW 5.0 seems to make PrimeTrader
(both the mac and the windows version) significantly more stable, and
customers that experienced strange font-related problems (Martin will
know what I talk about...) appear to have no problems with the new
version.
-- 
  (espen)

Re: LW 5.0 on Windows, Microsoft.VC80.CRT and delivered applications

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Re: LW 5.0 on Windows, Microsoft.VC80.CRT and delivered applications

FWIW, I've now tried to create an installer based on Microsoft Visual
Studio 2005 which should automatically install the C runtime if
needed.  IIUC, it should also take care of Windows Installer if it's
not there - I couldn't test that, though.  It's included with my "Lisp
Starter Pack"[1] and can be downloaded from here:

  http://weitz.de/files/LispStarterPack.zip

It'd be nice if some of you could try it and report if there are any
problems.  (It suffices to install the program and start it.  If you
see the initial screen, it works.)

The "Visual Studio Solution" which was used to create this installer
is included in the source tarball:

  http://weitz.de/files/starter-pack.tar.gz

Cheers,
Edi.


[1] http://weitz.de/starter-pack/

Re: LW 5.0 on Windows, Microsoft.VC80.CRT and delivered applications

On Wed, 27 Sep 2006 20:32:14 +0200, Edi Weitz <edi@agharta.de> wrote:

> FWIW, I've now tried to create an installer based on Microsoft
> Visual Studio 2005 which should automatically install the C runtime
> if needed.

Or so I thought.  Dmitriy Ivanov tried it and found out that you can't
use the "Just me" option.  I googled around a bit and found this one:

  http://connect.microsoft.com/VisualStudio/feedback/ViewFeedback.aspx?FeedbackID=98736

If I understand this correctly, it is not possible to create a Windows
Installer file which will automatically install Microsoft.VC80.CRT if
needed and which at the same time can be used for a per-user install.
As I could confirm on my own machine, the per-user installation will
fail even if the C runtime is already installed.

>From Martin's recent reply I conclude that LispWorks uses
InstallShield and I guess they don't have this problem.  But the last
time I looked InstallShield wasn't exactly cheap - I'd rather spend my
money elsewhere.

Sigh - that isn't good news for application delivery with LW 5.0... :(

So, what if one just throws the Microsoft DLL into the application
folder?  Apart from that not being The Right Thing[TM] - does anyone
know if this is OK license-wise?

Re: LW 5.0 on Windows, Microsoft.VC80.CRT and delivered applications

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