Re: How do people actually develop code using LispWorks

On Nov 23, 2004, at 11:29 AM, Bob Hutchison wrote:

> Hi,
>
> How do you folks actually use LispWorks on a day-to-day basis?
>
> I've assumed that you work in the provided IDE.
....

I use the LW IDE. I don't like emacs. The reason I bought LW Pro was 
because its IDE is the best of the OS X Lisps. MCL has a really good 
IDE, but it doesn't support OS X well enough for my needs.

  - Stoney

Re: How do people actually develop code using LispWorks

Bob Hutchison wrote:

> How do you folks actually use LispWorks on a day-to-day basis?

I use the IDE and I like it a lot.  Apart from the editor and the listener,
I use the debugger and the inspector every day, the compilation conditions
browser quite often and stuff like the profiler, the stepper, the process
browser and the generic function browser occasionally (but when I use them,
I'm very glad that they exist).

With other Lisps (in practice, that's mostly Allegro CL) I use Emacs + SLIME.

> OK, so I've been using LispWorks Professional for almost a year now --
> and using the IDE (and recently not enjoying it too much) --

What is it that you don't like?

Arthur

Re: How do people actually develop code using LispWorks

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 11:29:05 -0500, Bob Hutchison <hutch@recursive.ca> wrote:

> How do you folks actually use LispWorks on a day-to-day basis?
>
> I've assumed that you work in the provided IDE. I was at the first
> meeting of the Toronto lisp users meeting (organised by Bill
> Clementson while he is visiting Toronto, thank you) and a couple of
> things came up. First we were talking about IntelliJ IDEA (a Java
> IDE) and I 'recalled' that this is one of the very few IDEs that I
> actually like. Then the traditional emacs vs. vi discussion erupted
> (I admit that I'm a vi kind of guy :-) but I'm not completely
> ignorant of emacs (despite the impression I may have left last
> night) and that I do prefer emacs to most IDEs...
>
> So it has finally occurred to me that maybe the IDE isn't used by
> some segment of the LispWorks population -- maybe a large
> segment. And, sure enough, SLIME works with LispWorks. Hence the
> question.
>
> OK, so I've been using LispWorks Professional for almost a year now
> -- and using the IDE (and recently not enjoying it too much) --
> maybe I have to acknowledge that I might be a little slow :-)

I usually use SLIME instead of the LispWorks IDE because I also work
with other Lisps and I like to have the same environment for all.

There are some cases where I currently must use the LW IDE (with apps
that use CAPI or the FLI) but I'd rather not. For my taste it's too
close to Emacs but not really Emacs so I often hit the wrong keys. It
is also lacking some of Emacs' functionality. (Most of this could
probably be implemented somehow but that'd be too much work for me.)

Cheers,
Edi.

Re: How do people actually develop code using LispWorks

"Bob Hutchison" <hutch@recursive.ca> wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> How do you folks actually use LispWorks on a day-to-day basis?
> 
> I've assumed that you work in the provided IDE. I was at the first 
> meeting of the Toronto lisp users meeting (organised by Bill Clementson 
> while he is visiting Toronto, thank you) and a couple of things came 
> up. First we were talking about IntelliJ IDEA (a Java IDE) and I 
> 'recalled' that this is one of the very few IDEs that I actually like. 
> Then the traditional emacs vs. vi discussion erupted (I admit that I'm 
> a vi kind of guy :-) but I'm not completely ignorant of emacs (despite 
> the impression I may have left last night) and that I do prefer emacs 
> to most IDEs...
> 
> So it has finally occurred to me that maybe the IDE isn't used by some 
> segment of the LispWorks population -- maybe a large segment. And, sure 
> enough, SLIME works with LispWorks. Hence the question.
> 
> OK, so I've been using LispWorks Professional for almost a year now -- 
> and using the IDE (and recently not enjoying it too much) -- maybe I 
> have to acknowledge that I might be a little slow :-)

I use XEmacs to edit the files and the IDE for everything else.
I want to try SLIME but have not found the time yet.

Cheers,

Marc

Re: How do people actually develop code using LispWorks

Bob Hutchison wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> How do you folks actually use LispWorks on a day-to-day basis?
> 

I use the IDE. I mainly do my lisp development on Windows, but also use 
Linux now and again.  I find it amazing that people would choose to give 
up the integrated environment for (x)emacs and slime.  There's too much 
I'd miss - the function call browser, the clipboard, the inspector, the 
debugger and the process browser are the tools I would miss the most. 
But I would also miss things like the compilation conditions browser and 
the stepper.

Barry.

Re: How do people actually develop code using LispWorks

Bob Hutchison <hutch@recursive.ca> writes:

> How do you folks actually use LispWorks on a day-to-day basis?

I use slime connected to lispworks, with the IDE up and running.

I like to debug in the IDE.  The process browser, the class browser,
inspector, and debugger are much nicer to use in Lispworks, or have no
equivalent in slime.

But I can write code much more quickly with xemacs than Lispwork's
editor, so this half n half style works best for me.

-russ

Re: How do people actually develop code using LispWorks

On November 23, 2004 11:29 am, Bob Hutchison wrote:
> How do you folks actually use LispWorks on a day-to-day basis?

I use the IDE, and keep a copy of emacs floating around.

The IDE has too much functionality to throw away - stepper / break / debug, 
dbl-click on debug stack to jump to source, dbl-click on variables to bring 
up the inspector, built-in tags (esc-.), etc.

I add the lines [*]

(proclaim '(optimize (debug 3) (safety 3) (speed 0) (space 0)))

(declaim (optimize (debug 3) (safety 3) (speed 0) (space 0)))

to the top of my @make files to get the maximum detail out of the debugger.

When I want to write lots of new code, I use emacs.  Emacs does at least two 
things much better than the LW Editor: 

(a) it can split the screen, which I use for having two views of the same 
buffer (when I want to check something, but don't want to lose my place / my 
train of thought) - two (non-split) windows does not even come close to this 
capability and 

(b) emacs does not use pesky dialogs (e.g. file completion is unobtrusive in 
emacs, but a huge pain in the LW Editor (esp. under clunky lesstif/motif).

I'm weaning myself off of the evils of OO programming, so things like the 
class browser are rarely used by me.

pt


[*] I do two possibly-strange things that someone might want to help disabuse 
me of:

(1) I don't use the LW system browser, asdf or defsystem because they all seem 
(to me) to be clunkier than a unix-like make (esp. when you have a make-make) 
or an IDE which builds the makefile for you.  It seems just as easy to create 
an @make.lisp file (the '@' ensures that the filename appears at the top of 
the sorted list of files in a file browser) containing 
(compile-file ... :load t) commands as it is to goof around manually 
constructing a system / asdf file.  My method has the drawback that I 
recompile everything when I start up (while having coffee and reading 
www.whatreallyhappened.com).  Have I simply missed some powerful way of 
automatically producing system / asdf files?

(2) The proclaim / declaim lines above don't do antying unless I explicitly 
^X^E them.  Why?  How do I fix it so that max debug / min speed-space is 
automatically turned on?

Re: How do people actually develop code using LispWorks

On 23 Nov 2004 18:51:39 -0500, "Christopher C. Stacy" <cstacy@dtpq.com> wrote:

> I keep an Emacs running for doing some source editing, but it is not
> connected to LWW.  (I prefer the split screen in Emacs, miss DIRED,
> some other features, and my customization.  I hate syntax coloring.)
> The way that frames and buffers work in the LWW Editor drives me
> crazy.  I use the IDE Editor for most editing, completion, and all
> compiling and arglists and so on.  If I had the source code, I'd
> probably fix the LWW editor and use it, instead.

4.3 comes with the editor sources.

Re: [LISPW] How do people actually develop code using LispWorks

On Tue, Nov 23, 2004 at 11:29:05AM -0500, Bob Hutchison wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> How do you folks actually use LispWorks on a day-to-day basis?

As a newcomer to lisp I use the lispworks IDE on windows and I have a
permanently running (under screen) emacs on a server connected to a
cmucl process running my website. I don't have major problems with
either but the Lispworks environment certainly offers more to someone
who hasn't spent too much time embedded in the emacs experience. The one
thing I do miss is split editor windows. To solve this I run Litestep on
windows to give me multiple desktops and then open 2 or 3 editor windows
on different desktops and just jump between them as needed.
    
    cheers

        Andrew

-- 

Andrew Lawson
adl@absentis.com
http://www.absentis.com

Re: How do people actually develop code using LispWorks

Edi Weitz <edi@agharta.de> writes:

> There are some cases where I currently must use the LW IDE (with apps
> that use CAPI or the FLI) but I'd rather not. For my taste it's too
> close to Emacs but not really Emacs so I often hit the wrong keys. It
> is also lacking some of Emacs' functionality. (Most of this could
> probably be implemented somehow but that'd be too much work for me.)

I think the fact that it's in the lisp outweighs that it's a weird
emacs (actually, key strokes etc. don't disturb me that much, the only
thing that really annoys me is that C-X 2 will open a second window
instead of splitting the pane).

The lisps I "grew up with" were Xerox Common Lisp and MCL, so I
guess I'll never accept the idea of an editor talking to the lisp
instead of being /in/ the lisp.
-- 
  (espen)

RE: How do people actually develop code using LispWorks

Bob Hutchison wrote:

> How do you folks actually use LispWorks on a day-to-day basis?

I use most of the tools regularly.

I don't think anyone's mentioned the grep browser, which I
find invaluable. For example, when I'm making a non-trivial
change that involves changes in several places, I often add
temporary comments containing text such as "xxxx" and noting
something that remains to be done. A grep browser searching
for "xxxx" reminds me of what I have left to do and helps me
plan what order to do it in. Having the notes in the right
place in the code rather than on paper saves time -- a simple
double-click in the grep browser takes me to the right place
in the code.

If I have a spare hour or two, I might search for my
"fix-me" notes to see if there's anything I fancy tidying.

(To make it useful, you need to be able to search directories
recursively. See a thread here with subject "Grep and
searching subdirectories recursively" starting 2004-02-28.)

Simon

Re: How do people actually develop code using LispWorks

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Re: How do people actually develop code using LispWorks

"Christopher C. Stacy" <cstacy@dtpq.com> writes:

> Having the development environment integrated into a single program is
> just a hack for efficiency (both in terms of the machine, and in terms
> of the implenentor).  

Not just a hack, I think. It's The Right Thing for lisp programmers, 
since the editor is such an important part of the tool.

> I've been using Emacs for 25 years, starting with the original TECO
> implementation, and I like having just one editor that I can easily

AOL (or, not quite, I think I started using it 22 years ago and that
the first version was a clone called AMIS for TOPS-10). 

> and it's very painful not to have it anymore.  The height of Emacs technology
> was Symbolics Zmacs, and while it had some design problems, I'd far prefer

But (for those who have used both extensively, I haven't used Symbolicsen
much): Was it as fun as SEdit of Xerox Common Lisp?

-- 
  (espen)

Re: How do people actually develop code using LispWorks

Bob Hutchison wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> How do you folks actually use LispWorks on a day-to-day basis?
> 

Is use the LW IDE.  Many times I write multithreaded apps and test
them by having multiple listeners up.  Also I make use of the
other LW tools, in particular, the Class, Window, System and Process
Browsers, the Inspector and of course the GUI Debugger.

When I test remotely, through SSH, I will use Emacs in a xterm to
lower the bandwidth.  (Though it is more for delivered application
debugging than actual development).

Wade

Re: How do people actually develop code using LispWorks

At 11:29 Uhr -0500 23.11.2004, Bob Hutchison wrote:
>Hi,
>
>How do you folks actually use LispWorks on a day-to-day basis?
>
>I've assumed that you work in the provided IDE. I was at the first meeting of the Toronto lisp users meeting (organised by Bill Clementson while he is visiting Toronto, thank you) and a couple of things came up. First we were talking about IntelliJ IDEA (a Java IDE) and I 'recalled' that this is one of the very few IDEs that I actually like. Then the traditional emacs vs. vi discussion erupted (I admit that I'm a vi kind of guy :-) but I'm not completely ignorant of emacs (despite the impression I may have left last night) and that I do prefer emacs to most IDEs...
>
>So it has finally occurred to me that maybe the IDE isn't used by some segment of the LispWorks population -- maybe a large segment. And, sure enough, SLIME works with LispWorks. Hence the question.
>
>OK, so I've been using LispWorks Professional for almost a year now -- and using the IDE (and recently not enjoying it too much) -- maybe I have to acknowledge that I might be a little slow :-)

I also use the LispWorks IDE on Mac OS X. I'm even using the integrated
(Hemlock-like ;-) ) editor sometimes to edit Lisp source for
other Lisp systems. This (http://lispm.dyndns.org/lispworks-keys.html)
is the subset of editor commands I tend to use.

Sometimes I also use a Virtual Desktopmanager (like
'Desktop Manager') for Mac OS X
to get more organized screen space. I have a LispWorks running
as a user process with CL-HTTP as the web server. For remote
access this CL-HTTP is redirected to port 80 by a router.
I also have Timbuktu for a graphical login into the machine.
I also use CL-HTTP to generate HTML-driven IDE tools
(like browsing docs or packages).

Wishlist for the IDE:

- faster window creation
- simpler search file dialog
- apropos dialog
- native port of CLIM (with source)
- Dired tool
- menu commands (ctrl-click on the Mac) for the Buffer listing
  in the editor (Kill-Buffer, Compile Buffer, Revert Buffer, ...)
- real-time search

now the real fun thing:

iTunes-like source code browser with flexible/dynamic queries into the source,
user definable source collections, ... (don't get me started on this one ;-) ).

Rainer


>Cheers,
>Bob
>
>----
>Bob Hutchison          -- blogs at <http://www.recursive.ca/hutch/>
>Recursive Design Inc.  -- <http://www.recursive.ca/>